Agenda item

To determine the application.

Alan Davies presented the report to members.

Members received a presentation, in accordance with the public participation procedure, from Matthew Hall, the agent. Mr Hall stated that the pub at ground floor level was closed in December 2023, meaning that the facility has been lost for nearly 2 years, with the building on the second and third floors being used as a house of multiple occupancy and that use ceased just before the application was submitted, but it could be restarted. He explained that there is no loss of employment associated with the application as the pub/hotel ceased operation nearly 2 years ago and when he visited the site earlier in the year there were people sleeping rough in the rear section of the building in a single storey wing.

Mr Hall expressed the view that the proposal allows for a very prominent building to be brought back into use right in the centre of Wisbech, making reference to the planning history of the site laid out in the officer’s report which states that there was a refusal in 2017 and 2018 to change the building into a snooker hall and leisure entertainment centre and the current application is for change of use into residential with an officer’s recommendation of refusal and he questioned what else the building can be used for. He added that all of the technical consultees support the application along with Wisbech Town Council who fully support the application and there have been no objections to the proposal.

Mr Hall stated that the Conservation Officer has raised an objection and during the process of the application officers allowed some revised drawings to be submitted which did go some way to alleviating the Conservation Officer’s concerns. He made the point that the proposal would not result in the loss of the only pub in Wisbech as there are seven other pubs and two further hotels with bars all within 700 metres of the application site, with the other establishments being down the same road and there is a further one in the adjacent road.

Mr Hall expressed the view that the application site is right in the centre of Wisbech and not in a rural location and is unique as it has a large car parking area at the rear, its own access and is an ideal town centre location for quality residential development. He explained that one of the reasons for refusal is due to some of the flats falling short of space standards, however, there have been other applications approved by the committee and under delegated powers recently that have also fallen short of space standards, including the Buffs Club which was approved in March along with a recent application in Dartford Road in March above a shop where approval was given for five flats and some of those were short of space standards and there is also a former school next to his office where there is a conversion to 20 flats and over half of those are below space standards.

Mr Hall added that the application is a Listed Building, and he is trying to work around where possible what is already there, with the floor areas varying for each flat and he referred to the floor plans slide on the presentation screen. He indicated that there will be no works undertaken in the roof space and in the floor below the areas shown in red is where he is looking to take out some non-original partitions, making the point that there will be quite a lot of the original structure maintained and there will be very little alteration on the first floor and on the ground floor there are no concerns which have been raised by the Conservation Officer.

Mr Hall expressed the view that he feels that the alterations are minimal and in the officer’s report there are a number of positives with the proposal and at 10.22 it states that the application will have a neutral effect on the Conservation Area and there are no external changes to the front elevation. He expressed the opinion that the application will allow a Listed Building to be brought back into use in a very prominent location in the centre of Wisbech rather than leaving it vacant like numerous other buildings in Wisbech and the application will allow for the building to be converted to allow much needed accommodation in the growth town of Wisbech.

Members asked Mr Hall the following questions:

·       Councillor Benney stated that from the photographs it does look as through the property has not had any investment into it for many years. He added that it is listed as a pub and hotel, and he asked for clarity as to whether it was a hotel which had a bar in it or was it a drinking pub? Councillor Benney expressed the view that the size of the bar from the photographs does not lend itself to be a pub and appears to him to be more of a hotel with a licence. Mr Hall explained that quite a few years ago he undertook some work for Elgoods Brewery and it is his understanding that it had a licence, but you could still walk in and have a drink.

Members asked officers the following questions:

·       Councillor Mrs French stated that she is surprised that the officer’s recommendation is one of refusal, considering that it is located next door to what was once the Phoenix and all that is left of the Phoenix is a facia. She expressed the opinion that whoever the person who has brought the application forward should be congratulated. David Rowen stated that the application is largely recommended for refusal due to the lack of evidence which has been submitted as there are planning policies which require marketing exercises to demonstrate that there is no viable reuse of public houses. He added that as Mr Hall has indicated that the building has not been in operation for two years but the fact that anybody can stop using something does not mean that there is not a market out there for it to be used again. David Rowen added that had the information been received then the officer’s recommendation may have been different.

·       Councillor Mrs French stated that located next door is the Phoenix and all that is left at that site is the fascia. She added that the committee approved something very similar recently at the Buffs Club in March which had not been marketed either and she added that there are a thousand pubs closing every week across the country. Matthew Leigh stated that he feels it would be helpful for members to be aware of the loss of employment justification that was submitted, remembering that the Council does have a policy in place that requires sites such as this to be actively marketed, and officers have to balance any conflict with what the policy states. He added that the report states that the property was last used as a public house on 21 December 2023, and there is, therefore, no loss of current employment as part of the proposal. Matthew Leigh clarified it is for the land use and not whether it is active or not that the Council should be looking at, explaining that officers talk about the principle of employment rather than an active use. He added that the document then states that the applicant purchased the property in December 2024 and it was last used as a first and second floor house of multiple occupancy but that has now ceased, which was also in breach of planning rules and there were active planning enforcement cases on the property although it is not a material consideration for the determination of the application. Matthew Leigh stated that the report also says that the proposal does not result in the loss of employment, it results in the loss of use and the proposal results in employment for the trade and that is the full document in relation to their evidence. He expressed the view it is clear that the current owner has chosen to not market the site and members need to be conscious that all applications need to be treated the same and it would be a worrying state of affairs to accept that applicants can purchase a site ignoring the lawful use and to then submit an application and state that there is no lawful use without any marketing. Matthew Leith stated that there needs to be consistency and by ignoring policy requirements would be a dangerous stance for members.

·       Councillor Benney referred to the presentation screen and the photographs of the bar area and commented that it is certainly not a large bar area, and expressed the view it is a hotel with a small bar area in it. He asked officers to clarify whether it is a hotel with a bar or is it a bar with a hotel.? Alan Davies explained that the application was not accompanied with much information, but officers believe that it was a bar open to the public for walk in customers as well as a hotel with rooms above. Matthew Leigh added that his anecdotal knowledge is that it was a Public House, rather than just a hotel.

·       Councillor Marks stated that according to Companies House it traded as the Hare and Hounds Hotel Wisbech Limited, however, he does recall visiting it on one occasion as a walk-in customer to use the pub.

Members asked questions, made comments and received responses as follows:

·       Councillor Marks stated that it is a very prominent building as you drive into the town of Wisbech, located adjacent to a derelict property and, in his view, anybody who is willing to invest into a Grade 2 Listed Building should be supported. He made the point that it could end up being another property which falls into disrepair but could bring more accommodation and five extra bedrooms into the town. Councillor Marks expressed the view that the Council are already housing people in shipping containers which when considering their floor space, it is probably no better than what this proposal will give, but it will give somebody a home, and he will support the application.

·       Councillor Mrs French stated that she agrees with Councillor Marks and added that there are over 3,000 people on the waiting list for accommodation and a substantial number of those are people living in Wisbech. She added that it is costing the Council a very large sum of money to accommodate people in bed and breakfast accommodation. Councillor Mrs French stated that affordable homes are needed, and the applicant is willing to invest in this property to provide accommodation, and, in her view, they should be applauded.

·       Councillor Murphy stated that he agrees with all of the comments made by members and in Fenland it appears that there are numerous buildings which are being left in disrepair, and they will never come back to their original use, and this is an ideal opportunity to bring a building back to life.

·       Councillor Connor expressed the view that the application should be supported, it is a Listed Building, but the committee passed an application previously in Chatteris for the Travis Perkins site which now looks very nice and had the committee not approved it then it would still be in a state of disrepair. He added that Councillor Mrs French had made the point that there are numerous Public Houses which are closing as are hotels every week, with there being 22 months since the business closed down and there does not appear to be any interest from anybody to purchase the site and reinstate the Public House business. Councillor Connor added that there is another premises in Chatteris which is in a state of disrepair and that will be lost forever and if the committee do not support this proposal then the same thing will happen to this building and that does concern him. He made the point that if somebody is prepared to invest a significant amount of money it will be a good thing and will provide extra accommodation for those in need and he will support the proposal.

·       The Legal Officer stated that it appears that members have had regard to the fact that it is Listed Building, but she drew their attention to the specific duties that it imposes before the committee make their final vote. She added that when considering whether to grant development in respect of a Listed Building it is important to consider and to pay special attention to the priority of preserving a Listed Building or its setting and to the desirability of preserving or enhancing the character or appearance of a Conservation Area. The Legal Officer stated that with regards to the specific issue of a Listed Building consent because it is an application for both planning permission and Listed Building consent, she advised the committee when considering whether to grant the Listed Building consent for the works to the building itself it is important to pay special consideration to the desirability of preserving the building or its setting or any features or special architectural aspects which the building has.

·       Councillor Marks stated that he appreciates the point made by the Legal Officer, however, in his view, there will only be a loss of 10% to 15% and if the building is left empty for a number of years, it will become more dilapidated and suffer from vandalism and theft then there will be decrease of 90%. He expressed the opinion that Grade 2 Listed Buildings are a nuisance, because there is no financial input from the Government to do anything with them yet they place obstacles in the way. Councillor Marks stated that he appreciates that buildings need to be preserved but there does need to be progress as well and he will support it.

F/YR25/0505/F

Proposed by Councillor Marks, seconded by Councillor Mrs French and agreed that the application be GRANTED against the officer’s recommendation.

FYR25/0504/LB

Proposed by Councillor Mrs French, seconded by Councillor Murphy and agreed that the application be GRANTED against the officer’s recommendation, with authority delegated to officers to apply conditions.

Members did not support the officer’s recommendation of refusal as they feel that by leaving the building it will detract from the area, and the planned alterations will be minimal meaning that the heritage of the building will be retained and the property will be safeguarded.

(Councillor Imafidon declared, in accordance with Paragraph 14 of the Code of Conduct on Planning Matters, that he is a member of Wisbech Town Council but takes no part in planning. He further declared that the agent is undertaking work for him and that he knows the applicant as he rents a business premises from him and took no part in the discussion and voting thereon)

(Councillor Benney declared that the agent has undertaken work for Chatteris Town Council and himself personally, but he is not pre-determined and will consider the application with an open mind)

(Councillor Murphy declared that he knows the agent, but he is not pre-determined and will consider the application with an open mind)